AG asks NM Supreme Court to deny Bent’s petition

Update: High court rejects sect leader’s bond petition, (KOB-TV/AP, 10/27/09)

Update: Attorney John McCall Responds to the AG (strongcity.info, 10/19/09)

(Note from Mark: This development in the Wayne Bent case was addressed with an “update” link in a previous post, A message from Jeff Bent.  However, I thought it would be best to provide this separate post so that new links/resources specific to this development can be conveniently located here.  This approach also provides readers with an opportunity to comment specifically on the Attorney General’s response to Bent’s petition. A pdf file of the AG’s response can be downloaded at a link provided below.)

“The State disputes any contention that Petitioner’s memorandum and the record are ‘uncontested’ or that there is ‘overwhelming evidence’ that Petitioner is not a flight risk, is not a danger to society and has raised substantial non-frivolous questions in the appeal which could result in the reversal of the convictions.” –from State of New Mexico’s response to Wayne Bent’s  petition for an appeal bond

1.  News release from NM Attorney General (October 16, 2009)

2. NM AG’s response to Bent’s petition for appeal bond (pdf / 11 pages)

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97 Responses to AG asks NM Supreme Court to deny Bent’s petition

  1. avatar
    KM October 18, 2009 at 8:44 pm #

    The first thing I noticed while reading the response from the Attorney General’s office is the sentence in it that says “This response is timely filed on or before October 19, 2009.”

    Sounds like someday very soon the Supreme Court will make their decision on the Writ of Certiorari. Anybody want to haphazard a guess on what that decision will be?

    After reading the rest of the response my guess is that they’ll deny the writ and he will have to wait in prison for the results of his appeal.

    It’s like a game of chess, waiting for your opponent’s next move!

  2. avatar
    Anonymous One October 18, 2009 at 11:38 pm #

    I believe if WB would repent his wrong-doing, and admit that what he has done is wrong and was the act of a person who is sick and in need of help, there would be a better chance of an earlier release.

    But no, I think he will sit in prison for what he believes is right, creating his own misery and suffering.

    There is no way in hades they are going to let him out with the way he is acting and the trouble he is creating.

    He’s just shadow boxing and fighting laws that are not going to bend for him. I thought he’d learn this when he tried to test the boundary over food.

  3. avatar
    Sam Redman October 19, 2009 at 6:56 am #

    Flight risk

    Bent’s latest actions and statements, taking a deliberate and vocal stand against being subjected to the rule of the state in regard to his sentence, do not support contentions by the defense that he would obey any potential "state" orders to remain within the jurisdiction (conditions of release during appeal) and therefore could probably easily be ruled by the court to be a flight risk. In the post-verdict discussions, prior to sentencing, the prosecution presented this argument:

    …there is another group in South America that has contact with this group and we are concerned about the issue of flight risk because of that group.

    At that point of the proceedings, the State’s argument was disregarded and Bent was permitted release for the several weeks prior to the sentencing hearing. After incarceration, had Bent been a model prisoner and had he not taken deliberate actions to demonstrate and maintain overtly that he does not intend to be compliant with any directions and rulings by the State of New Mexico, then the court now would be able to reasonably assume that conditions of release similar to those agreed to prior to sentencing would also be respected.

    But, Bent’s own words from prison refute any possible defense arguments that he will again be compliant. The situation of Bent’s affinity with the South American group becomes relevant and the State will probably present that in these latest proceedings. This time such a concern would be more likely to be taken seriously, since Bent has declared so aggressively that he regards it "against his religion" to submit to any "subjugation" by the State.

    —- Sam

  4. avatar
    Jan October 19, 2009 at 8:46 am #

    So many many mistakes!

    This case really could be quite a legal study with all the many mistakes made by the Defense. I could be wrong of course as I have no legal background but it seems that there was a Plea bargain offered. I am thinking that might have been as simple as admitting to the touching of the underage victims. I would think Wayne might have even been able to say it was for the purpose of “healing,” and thus kept with the special reasons that he used to care about.

    Instead of course they wanted a trial where for me they lied about everything. He was not the true leader. He only touched the sternum even though his hand is large and would have touched the fleshy parts of the breast. His Defense was really a massive amount of lies in so many ways. Even the fact that Wayne was an indigent and needed a Court Appointed Attorney was a lie. As is now shown by the ability to be mounting an Appeal with a more high profile lawyer.

    And of course the mistakes continue in prison with this ridiculous fast against the State and their imperfect trays. But drinking Ensure seems to be ok? One mistake after another and reading these Documents it certainly appears that the State is not taking this case lightly. Now more than ever they do need to even look at how Wayne could be a flight risk. He has shown a blatant disregard to the laws and the actions of the State of New Mexico. It seems the State will continue to play hard ball with Mr. Bent as they should and I would be quite surprised if he is released for an Appeal, and even more surprised if he is even granted an Appeal.

  5. avatar
    Sam Redman October 19, 2009 at 10:00 am #

    My personal opinion:

    1. I don’t think he is a flight risk, but by his prison antics and statements he probably has destroyed his chances of that being granted.

    2. His crime, while repugnant, is actually not a grave offense in relation to other more serious sex crimes and felonies. He didn’t rape the girls or even have sexual intercourse with them. This case is about inappropriate touching. It is deserving of punishment, but not an incarceration time of draconian proportions.

    3. In regard to the nature of his crime, his 18 year (8 suspended) sentence is not appropriate. Compared to other criminal sentences in the state of New Mexico it is reasonable that he should have received, at the most, a house arrest sentence of 3 years. The additional multi-year requirements accompanying such a sentence, which include no contact with minors and extended tedious probation routines and procedures, would be a rather significant and sufficient punishment.

    4. My hope for Wayne Bent is for the appeals court to direct a resentencing and that he will be able to serve the balance of his time under house arrest at his ranch home.

    — Sam

  6. avatar
    Jan October 19, 2009 at 10:23 am #

    What is most frustrating to me in this case, is that the sentence just does not match the crime. Oh I realize that there may be many other crimes here than what Wayne was prosecuted for and families have gone through hell and back perhaps because of his actions. But the crime at hand was really inappropriate touching of two minors, and for that he gets 18 years? Daily you can read about far more serious sex crimes that have received much more lenient sentences and some of those there was even rape involved.

    It is too bad Wayne angered the State so much with his shenanigans, as it is the only way I can interpret what has happened to him with this very long imprisonment. I doubt if it will happen but it would be my wish that they would at least readdress the length of his sentence and after some time served be allowed to return home with perhaps an ankle monitor. Then maybe this ordeal would finally be at an end that would be satisfactory for everyone.

  7. avatar
    KM October 19, 2009 at 11:31 am #

    I also think the sentence was pretty long. But, he started his antics long before the sentencing. If I was the Judge (thank God I’m not one), after the constant letters, rants, fasts, other people fasting, the whole group fasting – all that before the trial even started, it would drive me insane!

    I’m not saying it was the right sentence (although certainly within the law and the Judge’s discretion) but we’re only human (including Wayne Bent) and those kinds of things can really get your heart pumping!

    He continued it through the trial and has kept it up since he was convicted. Their need for media coverage kept the craziness in the spotlight and I think that was a big mistake.

    Esther’s fast probably was a big one in the issue of whether the community is safe with him being released. While her point was to get him released and then she would eat and be happy, I doubt the courts saw it in that light. Probably more in the light of “look how much control this guy has”? They don’t want more problems with him or SC and while they seem to be peaceful people, I’m sure in the back of people’s minds they are thinking of Jonestown, Heaven’s Gate, Waco, etc.

    The way you get time off for good behavior in prison, or get released while appealing is by having good behavior. He might have had a few of those moments (who knows what goes on behind closed doors) but the ones that made the news were the bad behavior moments and unfortunately for him, those things stick in our minds.

    On a little different subject, did anyone else notice in the safe room interviews (I think that’s where I heard it), that L.S. had at least 5 “healing” session with Bent? Did I hear/read that right or was I just dreaming?

  8. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 19, 2009 at 12:01 pm #

    I agree that if Wayne would forget all of the shenanigans, and try to be an ideal inmate, that perhaps he would be worthy of some real pity, and perhaps the state would think about addressing his case and situation once again. Lets not forget Wayne Bent and Strong City still has an agenda. Remember they said that it was “In The Bank”. They are still waiting for God to deliver their messiah, and so far this is not happening. But I have never known Wayne Bent to bow unless it was on his terms. This power behind his voice is having too much of a good time bouncing Wayne up and down like a puppet, and will take Wayne further on down this rabbit hole that he calls Michael Travesser. There has been too many loose lips in Strong City posting on the internet all through the years, bragging and promoting this message, and seriously, they planned and wanted this all to happen from day one, and now this wild ride has only just begun. If only they really knew who was running the ride. Regardless, nobody gets off the roller coaster until it docks back in the station, unless the guy at the controls doesn’t let them ever get off… Shaking your fist, demanding your way, and acting defiant at the powers that be have often proved to not work well for ones cause. Some people just have to learn the hard way, and be humbled. Wayne has had free reign for well over 20 plus years, and now he gets to see what he has created with his life, views, and actions. God is the great equalizer in the end, and everybody gets to see how He pans it all out for all of us to see and learn. Wayne will have to be broken, just like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and even just like he (Wayne) has told all those countless souls through the years that he has strung out on a string and left dangling for all to see. He will be broken, or he will die trying. I am afraid that Wayne Bent has a bit more to learn before he sees something positive happening for his situation. Strong City has some tough decisions yet before them to make, and yet if they choose to be brave and honest, there is a light waiting for them at the end of the tunnel, and healing will come.

  9. avatar
    KM October 19, 2009 at 2:05 pm #

    Amen Johnny!

  10. avatar
    Hope October 19, 2009 at 4:16 pm #

    Well I doubt that Wayne is a flight risk unless it is being whisked off to heaven. I just cannot see him taking off and leaving all his flock behind and would they all follow? I just do not think so. But no question all these antics have to have negatively influenced the State of New Mexico. I think I said before that hopefully these people are knowing that they better begin to accept what God had decided for Mr. Bent and I doubt there will be any granting of an Appeal. Maybe he might want to begin working on that good behavior that KM spoke about.

    I tried to listen to the Safe Room interview but could not hear it on my computer. But 5 healings for LS? That would not surprise me one bit.

  11. avatar
    Jan October 19, 2009 at 7:03 pm #

    October 19, 2009
    Attorney John McCall Responds to the AG

    Posted at strongcity.info

  12. avatar
    KM October 19, 2009 at 8:17 pm #

    Yes indeed, he wrote a letter to the AG (and released to the media) and he filed a nearly 35 page response which is included! Already in the 2nd paragraph religious freedom has reared it’s head.

    Interesting if you can get through 35 pages. And so far it’s typically been about what a model citizen Bent has been. Not surprisingly it discusses the 7 witnesses pouring out the plagues but I have seen no mention of the sexual encounters that accompanied the religious ceremonies or the religious dogmas of the LOR.

    I guess we’ll wait and see if the Supreme Courts thinks Bent is a model citizen who will not endanger any of his community if any of the 9 docketing statements listed in Mr. McCall’s response are grounds for an appeal.

    Buzz! Your move!

  13. avatar
    Anonymous One October 19, 2009 at 10:18 pm #

    When they brought Jesus’ cross to him to carry to golgotha, he didn’t shake his fist at them and say “No, this is too heavy, bring me a lighter one with wood that’s not splintering.”

    I hope that makes sense to WB and his people. WB has equated this ordeal with Jesus’ crucifixion, which is offensive to me. But since they think on those terms, I would suggest to SC to pass it on to WB that maybe if he just chilled out a little and stopped the tantrums, the state might take him seriously… who knows.

    I’m wondering why they never ordered psychiatric care for WB or any kind of therapy for his predatory behavior.

  14. avatar
    EMC October 20, 2009 at 1:01 am #

    Anonymous One said:

    I’m wondering why they never ordered psychiatric care for WB or any kind of therapy for his predatory behavior.

    We don’t know that they haven’t. As part of Wayne’s medical treatment, that is privileged information. We would only know if Wayne chose to reveal it, which to this point hasn’t happened.

  15. avatar
    david mead October 20, 2009 at 5:58 am #

    The crime

    Did the court look solely at the crime of inappropriate touching? Probably not. It is argued that it should have excluded everything else but that. And if so, it could be argued that the sentence was too long. I am no layer but this question seems obvious; how could the court avoid looking at the larger picture which the few charges listed were only a part of?

    Here is a man who for a long time has taught himself and his followers to look at evil (mostly his own) as something else. As something other than evil. This is first, self abuse, and then when perpetrated on others in such a way that they cannot see evil for what it is either, it becomes mind control. It would require blindness to not see it.

    One problem with looking at evil as not evil, is that soon you cannot see good as good. Soon you can’t see anything for what it is. And then all of reality becomes whatever you (or your leader/voice) say it is. In this state, your mind may seem to be working well, like say for adding or subtracting a column of figures for instance (computer like), but as for good judgment, you have none. It’s gone. But more to the point, you make sure your subordinates have none either. For such as this, which is the greater crime, the sentence was far too small. In the light of this crime, perpetrated on all at Strong City, in this man’s opinion, the court was very lenient.

  16. avatar
    ron October 20, 2009 at 6:46 am #

    I would hope that the judge did get to see the “big picture”, and his sentence reflects the judge’s understanding of how dangerous this man really is. While the judge has some leeway, he also has sentencing guidelines to follow. Giving Wayne house arrest is the same thing as a giving his followers a prison sentence.

  17. avatar
    Milton October 20, 2009 at 7:28 am #

    David Mead said, “One problem with looking at evil as not evil, is that soon you cannot see good as good. Soon you can’t see anything for what it is. And then all of reality becomes whatever you (or your leader/voice) say it is.”

    Well said. You know where you, Johnny and a host of other disgruntled ex LOR members stand.

    Jesus was seen as an insane bastard criminal deserving to die for his “crimes” against the state. I have heard you, Johnny and others yelling the same things from this forum. The voice you follow will continue to lead you down a self-righteous road to perdition.

    The decisions you made back at the split (and prior) are full bloom. The decisions that Johnny made when he left the land (and prior) are full bloom. It is obvious to the recording angels. You will listen to the voice(s) that you have set up in your own hearts.

    “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;” Ezekiel 14:4

    “Ephraim (David Mead, Johnny Miller et al) is joined to idols: let him alone.” Hosea 4:17

  18. avatar
    Anonymous One October 20, 2009 at 7:39 am #

    Jesus didn’t ask the “state” to make his load lighter and that’s the point here. He faced his charges and took his punishment. WB has continually compared himself and his ordeal with the court to Jesus and his crucifixion which is absolutely absurd.

    Jesus died for what he believed in, WB is just sitting in prison throwing tantrums over food trays. When you break the law, you don’t get to order up vegan specials and do I think he should get special treatment? NO. I knew someone who had food allergies in prison and did they get special concessions made for them? NO.

    I am really irritated at the fact that WB thinks he should get special treatment because he’s a vegan messiah.

    I used to think that maybe WB should get out of prison earlier but now with his constant rants and insane behavior I think he needs to be shipped to a psychiatric hospital for the rest of his sentence. He needs serious mental help. Obviously the courts feel that he’s a possible danger to other people or they would have released him on appeal. Afterall, the man thinks he’s fasting on ensure.

  19. avatar
    ron October 20, 2009 at 7:52 am #

    “Johnny and a host of other disgruntled ex LOR members” Are there more ex-members than members?
    How many people have finally seen through Wayne’s BS?
    Milton, please show me where anyone has said they want Wayne to die. That is a typical example of how you take something and twist it around to your way of thinking. I wonder where you learned that from. Wayne?

  20. avatar
    Casidi October 20, 2009 at 8:10 am #

    I’m not sure how far any of you have read of the 35 page bond appeal, but I found this ASTOUNDING!!! On page 11 it states that Jeff said about his dad:

    ‘Defendant believes that “God ordained earthly government and man’s laws to
    keep order” . . . “I’ve never seen him put himself above the law.”’

    WHA!?!?! Wayne says the exact opposite! He states in his post on the SC website:

    ‘As you know, we stand at the end of days, where people are warned to not take the mark of the beast… (Revelations 14:9,10)… Of course we are very familiar with the word “beast,” which in the Scriptures represents civil government.’

    Milton, or anybody from SC, can you clarify how we are supposed to interpret these 2 statements as not opposing each other? Because as it stands it seems somebody is lying and it looks a lot like Jeff is giving lip service to get his father out of jail.

  21. avatar
    KM October 20, 2009 at 8:55 am #

    Casidi, They speak out of both sides of their mouths. And they think that the courts don’t read what they write on their blog. But, there are many court clerks especially in the higher courts and I’m sure that knowing how much they (WB and SC) all spew words of hatred toward the “beast” that someone is keeping tabs on what they write. Plus, Sam had everything up from the past for several months and will still make it available to anyone who asks to see it. I’m sure Judge Baca saw it, he isn’t like the jury who aren’t supposed to read, watch or listen to things pertaining to the case while they are jurors. Judges can read what they want and he had plenty of time to read what he felt like as well as all the letters sent directly to him. I don’t know him but I know other Judges and they know what goes on in their communities and if they don’t know, someone will tell them. I’m sure even the Warden and guards at the prison know how Bent feels about the “Beast”. He hasn’t exactly been quiet about it!

    Milton, your scripture quote is interesting but I can turn it around and put different names than you did.

    “Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;” Ezekiel 14:4

    “Ephraim (Wayne Bent, Jeff Bent, Milton, Hanifa, et al) is joined to idols: let him alone.” Hosea 4:17

    See, it’s not hard to change scripture to suit your own means. It’s not right (God forgive me for my example above) but the LOR seems to have decided that it’s their privilege to do so.

    I prefer to meet God with a clean heart knowing that I have served Him and only HIm.

    “Choose this day whom you will serve—
    but as for me and my house, we will serve
    the Lord.”

  22. avatar
    Sam Redman October 20, 2009 at 9:01 am #

    Bent’s gospel

    Casidi did well in pointing out something rather interesting. It is particularly fascinating  when you compare the statements from the “Appeal Bond” memorandum with a quote from the “gospel” book which Wayne wrote. 

    From Bond appeal Memorandum On page 11, Jeff Bent is quoted, concerning Wayne Bent:

    “God ordained earthly government and man’s laws to keep order” . . . “I’ve never seen him put himself above the law.”.

    However, Jeff, evidently, hasn’t studied the gospel which Wayne authored:

    From The Gospel of Michael

    by Michael Travesser (Wayne Bent), published August 2006)

    Chapter 2:2-3

    2. You are free. You may walk upon the earth wherever the Father leads you. You need not be troubled by their chains. Do not fear them as they come to put them on you. They will fall off. If forces come to threaten you, simply stand still. Fear not those who can only kill the body, but cannot harm the soul.

    3. Let them not trouble your heart. You need not pay for their wars, their sorceries, and their torments. You need not serve in their infantry. You need not respond to their draft. When they call, you need not answer, for you answer only the call of our Father, Who dwells in the heavens. What He says, you do, without concern for man’s laws, restrictions, and slaveries. You are free.

    Without concern for man’s law
    Wayne could not have been more specific concerning where he “put himself’ in relation to the law.  If the defense attorneys would like to have a copy of the entire Wayne Bent authored gospel, they can contact me as they did previously through the prosecutor’s office.

    — Sam

  23. avatar
    Casidi October 20, 2009 at 9:29 am #

    And another quote, page 12, from Wayne in direct contrast to what he has said in the past and currently:

    Wayne Bent, Direct Examination, May 26, 2009 Tr 20 (Exhibit 15). He was also
    asked about whether God would tell him to disobey conditions of release:

    Q. “If you’re (sic) released. If you’re (sic) released, if God were to suddenly tell you that you should go to South America, is that something that you would do under the circumstances? If you were on an appeal bond, would
    you attempt to violate and say that God told you to do it?

    A. No. God respects and has set up the laws of the State. And I’ve always used as an example with people: when Moses went to release the Israelites from Egypt, he didn’t do it – even though he had God’s command to do it, he didn’t do it without Pharaoh’s permission. And I believe I would have to have the State’s permission for what I do,
    until they free me to just be on my own.

    This is also in direct contrast to his “I cannot go against God’s instruction of me” statements all over his writings.

  24. avatar
    Milton October 20, 2009 at 11:48 am #

    Ron, you said, “Milton please show me where anyone has said they want Wayne to die”. David Mead said, “For such as this, which is the greater crime, the sentence was far too small. In the light of this crime, perpetrated on all at Strong City, in this man’s opinion, the court was very lenient.”

    Wayne touched a sternum with his hand. Another man who had repeated sexual penetrations with a minor was given house arrest on the same day as Wayne Bent got 10 years. Now David Mead is saying that his sentence was too light. I have nothing more to say.

  25. avatar
    Milton October 20, 2009 at 11:53 am #

    Casidi, what Jeff said and what Michael Travesser said are in perfect harmony. People on this forum want it to sound like he is throwing a fit or a temper tantrum or want special treatment etc. None of the latter is true either.

    We do not resist the beast, but we do know it for what it is and expose it for what it is. Jesus did not resist Pilate or Herod. Michael’s fast not done in resistance to the beast, but done to expose it.

  26. avatar
    Jan October 20, 2009 at 11:54 am #

    Another Hurdle for Bent
    Maren Tarro Tues Oct 20, 2009

    http://alibi.com/index.php?story=29501&scn=blog

    Just posted on line.

    Jan

  27. avatar
    ron October 20, 2009 at 12:02 pm #

    Come on, Milton. That is a far cry from wanting someone dead. If you cant even admit that you may have exaggerated in your statement, I guess I shouldn’t expect you to admit that your obsession with Wayne could be misguided, and that, God forbid, you may be wrong.

  28. avatar
    Beyond90Seconds October 20, 2009 at 1:26 pm #

    Folks, I’m trying something new here. Newest comments now appear at the top of comment section. Do you like this better than having to scroll to the bottom to read most recent comments?
    I realize that the box for leaving a comment is still at the bottom. But do you feel having most recent comments appear at the top is an improvement?

  29. avatar
    Casidi October 20, 2009 at 1:48 pm #

    Milton, I wasn’t speaking of his fast and what people have said about his fast, but rather his written words on the SC website in contrast to what he and Jeff stated in the appeal bond.

    If God respects and has setup the laws of the state and ordained man’s laws, then how is it that the “beast” is the civil government and that it’s ok to not listen to man’s laws?

    Right after what I first quoted about the “beast” being civil government he continues to write:

    Here God warns that when a soul follows state law rather than the law of God, he worships the state. This person is identified then by a mark on his thinking, which always reverts to the interests of the state (beast) rather than to justice and truth. If these people with the mark of the beast on their forehead then put forth efforts to enforce the laws of the beast over the laws of God, they are pictured as having the mark of the beast upon their hands. In my own case, and in my own condemnation by the state, we could all see clearly that God’s commandments to our hearts were swept aside in favor of [b]state policy[b] and public perception.

    If God ordained, respects and set up man’s laws how is it different than God’s laws? As you can see he also says “state policy”. If that is of the “beast” how can God respect and ordain it? Please explain.

  30. avatar
    Jan October 20, 2009 at 2:15 pm #

    Ok Mark I will jump in here and respond to your question about “having the new posts appear at the top rather than at the bottom?”

    I personally do not have a major preference however it does seem that most people are conditioned to look at the bottom for the last post. And hopefully when they are scrolling down to post they will read some of the great posts along the way. You are unusually fortunate to actually draw a very interesting group of posters and I just would hate for anyone to miss a good one.

    I do think that if you decide to keep it this way, we will all adapt. I find the little thumbs up and down very cool. Really all the posts should be a big thumbs up, at least in my opinion.

  31. avatar
    Sam Redman October 20, 2009 at 4:19 pm #

    Putting posts in reverse order — that’s what it is, is just plain insanity. It immediately destroys the thread, because instead of a conversation, it becomes a series of disjointed posts. After literally years of people reading threads online (maybe you are looking for new people who have never used the internet) to attempt to orient viewers to a new way of reading… well, it’s just crazy.

    Hey, I’ve got a great idea. Why not have the words in the sentences arranged in reverse?

    .you for out work will that maybE

    —Sam

  32. avatar
    Beyond90Seconds October 20, 2009 at 4:42 pm #

    Thanks Jan & Sam for your opinions. I thought I’d try this out after a couple of readers suggested it, sharing that they’d prefer this alternative over having to scroll down each time to read a comment.
    This approach is (obviously) an option provided by WordPress. I’ve noticed that many news outlets, such as the Seattle Times, also put the newest comments at the top.
    In the not-always-sophisticated vernacular of the news biz, this is putting the “freshest” content up front. For example, you would not put your oldest post (story) at the top of your blog and bury your newest story 10 pages deep in your blog/website.
    It’s been my experience that I often find the comment sections pertaining to a news story even more interesting than the original story. So, I’m used to having to go 5 or 6 pages deep into the comments to “read them from the beginning,” then working my way up (page by page) toward the most recent comment(appearing at the top).
    I’m not advocating either approach as I find them both simple to navigate. I am leaning towards the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approach,” thereby returning to the approach I’ve historically taken here.
    Let’s see if anyone else cares to weigh-in tonight.

  33. avatar
    Jan October 20, 2009 at 4:46 pm #

    I am leaning towards the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approach,” thereby returning to the approach I’ve historically taken here.

    I could not have phrased it better!

  34. avatar
    Anonymous One October 20, 2009 at 5:15 pm #

    Hi Mark

    I honestly do not care for the change. I still have to scroll down to find the first newest post anyway, and the thumbs are annoying 🙁

    But I also want to say that we all appreciate you hosting this blog and allowing a conversation to continue here. Thank you!

  35. avatar
    david mead October 20, 2009 at 5:16 pm #

    WAYNE’S CROSS—DRINKING ENSURE

    The followers of Wayne, the ensure drinking messiah ask us to compare his beverage with the cross of the Savior. They do this as if “without shame”, with the same forehead (face) as their messiah as described in Jeremiah 3:3.

    Well, his particular beverage, it might be the same if the Savior had stopped in the middle of the road, began a protest and complained about his treatment. He might have said that it was just getting too uncomfortable, the cross and that He had to carry it and could they please come up with something less disgusting? And if not, he was not going to go along with it any more for it just wasn’t right, being against his conscience and all.

    If the Savior had come up with a plan intended to look like His resolve had not been broken and yet satisfy the Romans at the same time, like Wayne is dong, then his followers would be correct.

    By drinking Ensure, Wayne hopes to accomplish two things; look to his followers as though his considerable resolve was not broken, just as Jeff said it never would be and at the same time, he hopes the state will see him as somewhat more compliant now, not resisting unto death as previously advertised. And not needing those uncomfortable tubes.

    While our man has been successful in the one area—drinking his beverage and thereby impressing Milton and Co., the state is not. While his followers intend to compare what he drinks to the cross of the Savior, the state sees it another way—it still has him incarcerated and it may adversely affect him getting what he wants from his appeal. Though he wanted the best of both worlds, he was only successful with part of the equation. I would call this a miscalculation, a serious one.

  36. avatar
    Hope October 20, 2009 at 5:26 pm #

    I do not like the comments at the top at all as it is most annoying when I want to comment on a post or quote a post it usually is the most recent and now I have to keep going all the way to the top of the page to find it. That is just nuts.

    But I see that Milton was here today. I would really like him to try and explain how Wayne Bent is actually on a FAST while he is drinking this Ensure product which is obviously not fasting in the truest sense of the word. Do the Lorites support anything this man does no matter how crazy it is?

    And speaking of crazy, I saw where his attorney said he was not, I disagree and believe that is the only thing that makes anything he has done in the last several years explainable. He has to be well on his way to some form of dementia.

  37. avatar
    CSC October 20, 2009 at 5:54 pm #

    Mark

    To me personally it does not matter top or bottom I’m gonna read the material either way.Was a bit taken back by the thumbs as they are a bit over the top. I do however think that it gives us as readers a way to say we like or dislike what is being said by a person without cluttering up the thread with unneeded postings. No matter how you choose to format your blog and comments is not the issue, because that is up to you as the host. What is the issue here to me has not changed. That is, “is the news and postings worth my time to read?” That can be summed up very simply by saying “YES”. You have done a wonderful job keeping us informed so for that 2 thumbs way up.
    Now back to the topic at hand I see a snowball having a better chance in H@#l than Wayne getting an appeal. At this point he need to be a good little boy and play nice by the rules.

  38. avatar
    KM October 20, 2009 at 7:08 pm #

    Unless Jeff has heard something that we haven’t I believe his statement on their latest blog entry is incorrect.
    He says “Now it appears the NM Supreme Court is going to give our petition a thorough review.”

    The way I understand filing a Petition for Writ of Certiorari is that it is based on a brief summary of the facts, considering both the Defense attorney’s 35 page motion and the Attorney General’s response to that motion.

    If the court thinks that further review is necessary, then they will grant a Writ, at which point they will perhaps go through the other 185 + exhibits and affidavits. But more likely their Law Clerks will research the statutes for Release on Appeal Bonds and the Court will decide if an appeal bond is justified.

    Just granting a Writ does not mean Bent will be released from prison on bond. It just means they’ll look closer at his case.

    If the Court agrees with the Attorney General’s Response that was filed last week, they will deny the Petition for a Writ and Bent will continue to wait in prison until his Appeal is decided. This particular Petition is just for the Appeal Bond.

    If the Appeals Court rules against Bent, his attorney can file another Petition (more time and money) and the process will start again. Even if the Supreme Court were to grant a Petition for a Writ of Certiorari of his actual case (this would be a whole new Petition) and they were to rule that the sentence is inappropriate, they would send it back to the District Court for re-sentencing which will be another month or months of more of the same.

    Either way, the process is long or as someone told WB, “The wheels of justice turn slowly.”

  39. avatar
    EMC October 20, 2009 at 8:10 pm #

    Not a fan of “newest first.” When given the option, I always click for the oldest posts first, as that provides continuity.

    I usually go to the home page and use the “most recent comments” option on the right to go to the point which I had previously left off. If there are more than 10 new comments, I go to the oldest of the ten and scroll up.

  40. avatar
    Sam Redman October 20, 2009 at 9:00 pm #

    Reasons why you would want newest comments first:

    1. To discourage conversations (and encourage just a few isolated opinions)- example, for news stories in online newspapers which are not wanting extended conversations. (It stops the “I agree” and “I disagree” and the follow-ups to follow-up posts).

    2. For reviews — of perhaps movies or recipes, again it’s for soliciting opinions which need to stand alone and not for reader responses to those reviews (stops “you’re-right-or-you’re-wrong” posts).

    3. To solicit stand alone follow up (or complimentary) blog posts which are similar to the original post.

    4. To discourage dialog, because often such conversational threads end up with name calling and off topic insults, requiring intense moderating.
    ———

    Example of how it’s done, if you have a sophisticated readership: look at the New York Times comments, which are only permitted on selected articles. Every thread is always “latest last,” enabling some remarkable conversations (sometimes 400 or more posts) and followups to other reader’s observations.

    — Sam

  41. avatar
    Beyond90Seconds October 20, 2009 at 11:48 pm #

    Okay, seems to me that the vast majority of readers here like the oldest comments appearing at the top. So, the comments now appear in chronological order (oldest to newest), just as they have in the past.
    As for the “thumbs”…WordPress has this option for rating comments. When I opted for allowing people to rate comments earlier today, I was a bit surprised to see this feature displayed as thumbs up/down (I had suspected the rating would be done with stars). I agree with CSC’s remark in a previous comment; the thumbs do seem a bit over the top. Still, several people have rated comments today/tonight, and this seems to be a way to make the blog a bit more interactive. So, I think we’ll leave the thumbs up.
    Thank you, everyone, for your feedback!

  42. avatar
    Milton October 21, 2009 at 12:11 am #

    Ron, if someone wants to kill another persons ability to speak what is given them from God or kill their ability to do what God has given them to do then they have effectively killed them. This is what I hear continually from this forum and it is getting stronger all the time. It is like a feeding frenzy. Kill the wretch’s testimony who claims to be Messiah is the thrust that the angels of heaven record.

    How often have I heard it said here sayings like, “Michael is a “self-proclaimed” messiah. Michael is a lunatic messiah. Michael is a fast breaking ensure drinking messiah. Michael is a child molesting messiah. Michael is a messiah with dementia. Michael is a messiah that needs psychiatric care. Michael is a messiah that does not believe his own words. etc. etc.” These types of words “kill” his testimony that is true and faithful IN those who write it and in those who read it and swallow the lie. The state has just done as you directed it to do and in accordance with your desires. You have created the beast that kills freedom of religion. You have little concept of what you are doing or the final results.

    David Mead, Johnny and others like them on the other hand know what they are doing. That is why they can be so fluent in their self-righteous hatred of God’s ways. They have seen what God has done and have rejected it. What they once sang praises to God for, they now deny. They see as a curse, what they once loved. I know from personal experience this to be true of them both, but more for Johnny than David. Johnny has more to answer to God for than David.

  43. avatar
    KM October 21, 2009 at 12:16 am #

    We are such creatures of habit! It’s like putting your shoes on.

    Do you put your right shoe on first or your left? (This is not a real question, just an illustration – but I’ll bet several people answer it).

    Me, I don’t put shoes on – when I do my dogs think we’re going for a walk and start tearing around the house and howling. So, I’ve become a barbarian and I save a lot of money on shoes and socks!

    Mark, either way, it’s your blog and I appreciate you allowing us to comment on it. My thumb up is for you! 😉

  44. avatar
    ron October 21, 2009 at 4:22 am #

    Milton, death is death, BS is BS!

  45. avatar
    Sam Redman October 21, 2009 at 5:19 am #

    But, Milton, according to Wayne’s most recent remarks, “Wayne Bent” is not the messiah is he?

    On the witness stand he denied that he had any special role, no more than just any believer in God. “We all are messiahs,” he said, and that he “isn’t any different from all true followers of God.” And after the trial in a posted statement, which he said he had intended to present at the sentencing, but didn’t have the time, he reiterated how he was just perplexed that the media and others were going on about him being the messiah, when he was just a believer and made no claim to being any more of a messiah than all of the other believers.

    So, if anyone “killed” the concept of messiah in Wayne, something we have the undeniable written record that he actually did claim… (I could post all the quotes from Wayne, both claiming and denying, but repeating them here is not necessary), it was Wayne himself. Like Simon Peter, denying Jesus three times before the cock crowed, Wayne has recently, many times, denied that he is any sort of special messiah.

    Wayne has done a very good job, “killing” his own messiah position… he hasn’t needed any help from the few sideline kibitzers who post here.

    — Sam

  46. avatar
    David October 21, 2009 at 9:11 am #

    What is the appropriate sentence for the crimes committed in this case? 18 days or 18 years? Should we feel bad for a criminal that receives a long sentence? Um…what’s the reason for the sentence? Oh yeah, he was convicted of a crime!!! Instead of thinking Wayne’s sentence was drastic perhaps we should be thinking that the 10 day sentence (of the other man who was sentenced around the same time) was too drastic!!! Maybe we should move our thinking the other direction—longer sentences, no probation. Why is it necessary to think that because this is a sex crime that a lengthy sentence is not warranted? Perhaps, the sentence also contained a message: Don’t commit the crime if you can’t do the time. So what that is wasn’t murder, rape, tax fraud or what other “hard” crime you want throw in there? If sentencing guidelines are also a deterrent, then this case is a real poster board.

  47. avatar
    Jan October 21, 2009 at 10:07 am #

    After rereading the thirty-five page response by Attorney McCall I would think there would be areas of concern by the State, to even consider bond.

    Jeff says:

    Defendant believes that “God ordained earthly government and man’s laws to keep order” . . . “I’ve never seen him put himself above the law.”

    But Jeff he has put himself above the law or he would not be in this predicament in the first place.

    When Wayne was asked if God wanted him to disobey his conditions upon release, would he?.

    Wayne responds:

    No. God respects and has set up the laws of the State.

    Why would Wayne’s God now respect the laws of the State when he clearly did not before?

    When asked if he were to perform a religious healing while released.

    Wayne says:

    because the State assumes responsibility of these minors. And so they are a parent now. And before, I just had the minor ask the parents. Now I would have to have the minor ask the State. So without a Court order, it wouldn’t happen.

    But he performed a religious healing on the Sayer girls based on the fact that they trusted Wayne, not on a permission granted in an open discussion regarding a naked healing session. So why now would Wayne comply with any higher State power, especially when he condemns the State as the beast every chance he gets.

    I also find it interesting how much they dwell on how Judge Baca’s schedule dictated the abbreviated trial as to witnesses being called by the Defense. One could just as easily argue that the Prosecution was limited as to who they could call, with Prudence Welch and Johnny Miller not called, and certainly if they had gone the religious route any testimony regarding document retrieval by Sam Redman with all of Wayne’s writings that had been scrubbed off of the Internet would not have helped the Defense one bit. I think the Defense should be glad the trial was shortened because if I remember that one juror who posted here was blown away by all that she did not know. There just is no way that would have helped Wayne Bent.

    The long discussion of what constitutes the female breast and how that might have impacted the verdict was fascinating. It has always been the one area that I have wondered about, in that perhaps this case might tighten up that issue if there is any vagueness regarding what part is intimate. I suppose it might be the one point in all those thirty-some pages that might offer Wayne some hope on Appeal. But most people that have studied this case and legally are far wiser than I, seem to not think he has a prayer. I guess time will tell.

    Jan

  48. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 21, 2009 at 10:18 am #

    The scriptures state in Matt. 10:33, “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”Yes Milton, these are most solumn words spoken by Christ Jesus Himself, speaking about Himself and His heavenly Father. All scripture and prophecy point to Jesus as the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the Messiah of all the Ages. It is on Him that all professed Christiandom point depend, believe and hope on, and there is no other name under Heaven, except for Jesus of Nazareth, who now sits on the right Hand of the Father. Jesus does not need the help of any other messiahs. His death on the cross was the only plan from the Throne of God that was acceptable to the Father to redeem fallen man. God did not ever, not once in the great scope of history,through scripture, ever say He needed a mortal man of sin to go to a literal bed with any amount of women to finish, consumate, and perfect the work of Christ Jesus. If this was the case, then there would have been other notable cases of men who have attempted to do this very same act in times past. Remember there is nothing new under the sun. I imagine there has been those who have tried it in times past, but God nipped it in the bud… PERIOD. These men were discovered to be wrong, and woe to those who encouraged these men to continue in these deceptions. These prophecies used by Mr. Bent were not meant to be used to ever point to Mr. Bent. They pointed to Jesus alone. I put my trust and eternal destiny in Christ Jesus, and not Wayne Bent. In the beginning of my walk with Wayne, he was in my opinion what I needed as a pastor, a shepard, a fellow believer in Jesus, and an true examble of a sincere Christian. I delighted to call him brother, and submitted to his councils as a leader in this church which I loved dearly. But in the year 2000, he changed, and took the glory unto himself. He made himself equal with the Christ, and took all the scriptures pointing to Christ Jesus, and said that they also applied to himself, Wayne Bent, and he said that men needed to believe in him, in order to be saved from sin. For several years after 2000, I watched and listened to Wayne to see where he was going with this. I prayed for him, hoping that if he was indeed who he said he was, that God Himself would manifest it somehow in a way that all men would see and acknowledge the fact. There has always been SILENCE from the true Godhead to point to Wayne. The God of Israel uttered not one word in proof or approval of Mr. Bent. Wayne was warned to not do these things from many in and out of the LOR. He continued in his self sent deceptive ministry. Still I waited for anything, because I wanted to believe, but God would not allow that special place that was in my heart, that place that was reserved for Him alone to be molested by any mortal man. This was God’s work and responsibility, and He was faithful to keep me safe. You see, I was special to God as well, as is every soul who trusts in Him. God allowed me to experience the final straw which then caused me to remove myself from the lie. That being the underage girls, and Wayne entering into known sin. God established the laws of the land to protect all men. It was enough, and I acted accordingly, and left the LOR. Yes Milton, I will answer to God for all the truth that I have accepted through out the years of my life, and I will be able to stand in that final day because I will not deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. He is not ashamed to even call me brother, and I am not ashamed to call Him my God. I fear for the soul of Wayne Bent and also for those who cling to him for salvation. Yes, all Christians are messiah types, as the name Christian implies. We are to be Christlike, and fortunately that Judgement is left unto God alone. We have all on this forum seen how certain men love to judge their fellow men, as if they have the direct ear of God and Angels. Talk about thinking one has the choice seats in heaven, in that men believe that they can judge as God judges. Judge not, except you be judged with your own judgement is the warning from the scriptures. I commit my old friend Wayne Bent to the buffeting of Satan, and to the State of New Mexico’s Penal system, and his soul I leave with God alone. Surely Milton, you have something else better to do than to go around nipping at my and Davids heels like a little yapping dog with it’s tail between it’s legs. If you are so right, post why you believe Wayne over Jesus. Give real evidences that will convict our faulted faith in Jesus alone. Why do you believe in Wayne Bent? Remember I sat in on everything that you ever sat in on, plus more in some ways. I missed the last three years. Perhaps you have what I need. This is more than a faith issue. Our Faith must be backed up with proof from on High. I can back my case, no problem, now back yours. I shared my heart, now share yours. And don’t give me the Sign of Jonah excuse. Its a cop out. What makes Michael Travesser’s Song of Solomon ministry better than those who attempted to use it in the past, (and failed), as there has been many professed “Michaels” throughout history, even present age history. David Koresh called himself “Michael” as well. Why did Jesus need somebody to come in and finish mopping up?

  49. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 21, 2009 at 10:40 am #

    I apologize that my last post was a bit off subject, but I was publicly pointed out and attacked by a fellow poster. He needs to jusify his personal attacts against his fellow posters. This, in my opinion is wrong, and I seriously should not have to subject myself to these attacks. I want to know why Mr. Bernheisel, and some others from Strong City treats this forum and it’s posters in this way? I don’t know what else I can do. I believe my views as I express on this forum are not opressive in any way. My opinions are my opinions, and I base my accounts on personal knowledge of the facts expressed on this forum as a eye witness to the events covered. This forum is not a battle ground. Forgive me if I am wrong for sharing my heart and views. Dispite the fact thaat I disagree with issues presented by some, still that should put each and all of us in positions to show equal respect for these matters, even to the point of respecting Wayne Bent. I am tired of the sucker punches, even to the point of wanting to leave this forum, unless something changes soon.

  50. avatar
    Jan October 21, 2009 at 10:55 am #

    Johnny, It would seem that you are with the Majority here in what you say. I for one welcome your personal thoughts as you were there and have much to share. Who better than you to help us understand all of this? Please do not take any attacks as personal. Just shrug it off and consider the source.

  51. avatar
    Sam Redman October 21, 2009 at 11:30 am #

    I found a very interesting remark in the letter displayed on the strongcity.info site, written by Bent’s appeal attorney, John McCall. You can find the link at the top in the post by Mark Horner… in other words, the start of the topic we are discussing.

    From John McCall’s letter to the press:

    …sex offenders either show signs of being a sex offender over time or, if they are older, science shows they almost always have dementia or brain degeneration associated with late in life molesting.

    What would be amusing about that (if it were not so pathetic) is that his client is a man who claimed to have been taken over by an angel, who then spoke through him and who forced him to have sex with, first, three women, and then later, at least six more.

    Maybe this quote by Wayne Bent, writing as Micheal the Archangel, referring to himself (Wayne) in the third person, might allow John McCall to realize that perhaps Wayne fits the very definition of dementia which he mentioned:

    Wayne Bent writing as Michael the Archangel
    From “The Revelation of Michael, The Son of God”
    Posted by Michael the Archangel (aka Wayne Bent) — August 13, 2007

    I brought three Witnesses of the Covenant to him. He was made to consummate the Covenant with them. He too, as did Jesus, felt that his humanity could not bear the crisis at hand. The Father took these three women from their previous husbands and sent them to Wayne, and Wayne was forced by the Spirit within him, My Spirit, the Spirit of Michael, to complete the union.

    Goodness, when anyone claims that he is possessed by an entity, which is actually speaking and writing separate of the will and direction of the possessed individual and that this entity is commanding his behavior… that’s a clear example of the very insane condition which John McCall described.

    — Sam

  52. avatar
    Beyond90Seconds October 21, 2009 at 11:45 am #

    Alright, I’ve done away w/the thumbs. Some of you wrote to me saying that you feel that the thumbs would negatively impact the quality of the comments as well as the open flow of discourse and exchange of ideas here. In short, I feel the benefit (an additional way to interact w/this blog) of the thumbs probably doesn’t outweigh the feature’s potential negative impact (discouraging some voices from expressing their points of view here).
    I have opted, though, to limit the comment period for all posts on this blog. Comments will remain active/open for 7 days, then close.
    Thank you, everyone, for your participation on this blog.

  53. avatar
    whisperwind October 21, 2009 at 12:57 pm #

    Ron said: How many finally saw through Wayne’s BS?

    Many of us ex’s, having been condemned and shunned by LOR only became aware of this episode of sexual profligation after they came out of the closet and began flaunting things to the whole world, condemning any who would not consent. Those of us who came to realized that things were not quite right in LOR land before Wayne’s attempted grand finale, were largely motivated to separate by the activities engaged in by the Miltons of the group,(maybe there is some culpability Milton). Wayne defended, protected and directed from his inner sanctum, these adoring automatons, using their prostituted souls to conduct his dirty work. To this day, it is demonstrated, that they would at the slightest suggestion, participate in the vilest of actions, justifying it by any means necessary and call it holy. They have no regard for the pain and damage they might inflict upon others and Yes Milton, I for one find this very “disgruntling”. You can pay for expensive representation, do all the image polishing you want and disparage those who point out the blemishes but you can never undo your many ridiculous activities that tell the real story of the Travesser odyssey. Having said that, you can take comfort in knowing that there is probably some babylonish court that might be in harmony with your moral ideals. But it will be costly to find it, and your little gig will never again have the beauty that it once did. Do you know why? Because you chased all the beauty away.

  54. avatar
    david mead October 21, 2009 at 1:15 pm #

    Sam, you and McCall (Wayne’s attorney) make a really good case for dementia on the part of Wayne Bent. You have shown from Wayne’s own words about himself, what his attorney was talking about. Perhaps McCall will prefer not to make that particular argument again.

    If someone told us they saw or heard an angel on their way, we might be inclined to believe them, especially if the angel helped them, or saved them from danger in some way. But if that angel comes back again later that day, and then keeps coming back with more and more instruction until he/it is telling you how to live with ever more repeated visits, with whom to consummate, and many other things against your better judgment, this is quite another thing.

    And then if this person with his angel asks you to believe the angel too, follow its instructions for now it lives inside you, and when you speak, listen to it say to get naked with you in your bed, this is the style of dementia to which the attorney McCall referred.

    Such a demented person might otherwise know how to eat, sleep, speak and look nice. He might know how to go around as if magnanimously, messiah like, blessing those who approve of him. To these, he may know how to appear humble as he accepts their accolades. He may be skilled at making others appear more demented than he.

    He may have minions like Milton and Co who are willing to help him in all such endeavors in turning reality into the opposite of what it is. But it is still dementia. I would consider it worse than those who lose their minds in some other more “traditional” way.

  55. avatar
    ron October 21, 2009 at 1:17 pm #

    I keep getting new insights and information from this post. I think it is a shame to limit the comments to a 7 day time period. It takes time for these little gems of information to come out. Johnny and Wisperwind’s latest posts would not appear and give insight if you had already implemented the 7 day policy. That being said, this is Mark’s blog, and I have enjoyed the comments of thoughtful folks, so however you handle it, you have my respect and gratitude.

  56. avatar
    Hope October 21, 2009 at 1:26 pm #

    Thank you Ron for saying that, as I have been sitting here trying to figure out how we went from post location, to thumbs up or down to limiting the days of the thread. Could we vote on this? Sometimes there are days in a row with travel that I am not even able to read here let alone post and I might miss out on a topic all together. This subject still seems to be so interesting to so many of us and once in awhile we even get one of Wayne’s supporters responding I am just not sure why one would want to put a limit on the time for a thread. It would seem the limit would either be when the posts go way off topic, disintegrate as that one thread did awhile back or there have been no new thoughts posted for several days. So I respectfully agree with Ron and wish you would not close a thread after 7 days.

  57. avatar
    Casidi October 21, 2009 at 1:51 pm #

    I give a huge thank you to Mark for having this blog for us to discuss the issues and I understand that after 300+ comments, going back to read and moderate can be a huge amount of time that Mark could otherwise be using as free time. Was reordering and thumbs a way to moderate easier? I could definitely see both used that way.

    Perhaps Jan can re-open the forum that was associated with Sam’s site and at day 7 create a new thread titled the same as the title here and post the link to the forum for additional discussion? Just an idea. 🙂

  58. avatar
    david mead October 21, 2009 at 2:53 pm #

    Hey Johnny,

    In response to your last post, I would just like say that I think I know how you feel. I too was recently attacked in the same way you describe (sucker punched) and no one said anything about removing his post against me, nor his subsequent ones either. And I did not call for them to be removed. But when I began to respond to him, to several more of his posts, then I was told I was off topic. His post was off topic; it was an attack and I wondered why I was not granted the same freedom as he. I wondered why if his false attacks were allowed to stand, how were my responses to them not acceptable? At the time, everybody was posting “off topic” whenever they wanted.

    That said, I hope you don’t leave this forum.

  59. avatar
    Faith October 21, 2009 at 3:09 pm #

    I don’t want to sound stupid, but I’m confussed about the whole seven virgin thing. Didn’t Wayne drop two of the underage girls out of the original seven, and replace them with women, who were married to other members? How did they revert back to virgins? Is this part of his dogma? Does he make he rules up as he goes?

  60. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 21, 2009 at 3:39 pm #

    I recall when Jesus was riding into Jerusalem on Passover, and he paused and wept over the city, as he remembered her once high calling, and then seeing what she had become, and what she was getting ready to do to him, and to everything which was pure, holy, and just. He knew it had to happen, and was willing to indure all the indignity of the season that was going to be thrust upon Him. Yet He still wept over the city. When I read Whisperwinds post, I was moved to tears as well. Why, because I remembered the original beauty of the LOR, and what it stood for. Yes, the beauty is now gone, and she has chased away all the voices that warn and reprove from within. The true voice of prophecy is gone from her, and she has become as tinkling brass, full of dead mans bones, and may I say a cage full of every unclean and hateful bird. Their words all reflect hatred for their fellow man, this planet, and any who are not in their camp and mindset. Their deluded message is now all about creating pity and support for their leader who has perfected to a Tee the biblical lesson of, “Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.” This has been Wayne’s life since the late 1970’s… but he refuses to acknowledge it in his own life now as manifested by current events. He says he is in prison for keeping the Sabbath. I differ to disagree with him. Ask the simple,lowly prison guard watching Wayne, why Wayne in in his keep, and he will tell you plainly. The legal paperwork begs to differ. Not once was the Sabbath brought up in the court trial. It was not about religion. It was about Wayne breaking a State of New Mexico law… a law made to protect all of it’s citizens. Wayne had his day in court, the jury heard the case and decided it based on the evidence alone, and Wayne was convicted, and sent to prison for his crime against children. How could it have been any other way? Wayne had the power all along to have prevented all of this from happening, but he pressed on hard with his agenda… and Strong City is surprised and unsettled? Spare me, I was there in the room when Wayne asked for everyone’s permission and blessing to bring the underage girls into the picture. Everyone sat there dumbfounded, as not one person said one word to protect these two little girls from themselves and this monster being laid out for them. Even I kept my mouth shut, and for that I am ashamed. Strong City thinks deliverance is coming for their leader. Satan tried to keep the Angels of God from coming to roll away the stone at Jesus’s Tomb, but all the evil forces fled when only one Angel came forth to roll away the stone and called forth the Son of God from the Tomb. Jeff Bent said that it is in the bank, but he must be referring to something else in the bank account, as he is going to need a whole lot of money to pay the legal system to get them to do anything for Wayne Bent’s comfort. Strong City truly will be paying for the comforts of a few lawyers, as they turn the wheels of justice just slow enough to drain the bank accounts of Wayne Bent. Justice for convicted inmates is not cheap, to say the least, especially justice for those who are really guilty of the crime. What a sad end for my old friend, and yes, I stand and weap between the porches for the once pure and holy city called the LOR. She has forgotten everything that we once stood for, and she will soon be no more. And those within her who has allowed and encouraged the most of this deception will suffer the most in the end. This is just how heaven and earth works together. Justice and Mercy mingled together, but in no wise will the guilty escape their just rewards. God is fair.

  61. avatar
    Beyond90Seconds October 21, 2009 at 3:43 pm #

    Hi Mr. Mead,

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that we exchanged some respectful e-mails regarding one specific comment made by you that I felt crossed the line due to its sexual content.
    As I recall, you offered that it did cross the line, then added that it wasn’t typical of your posting style and you even apologized.
    You were also concerned that your comment kept appearing on the blog when you visited this site. You said you wanted it taken down. I tried to assure you that the comment had been taken down. I suggested that you delete any temporary internet files and cookies in your browser, then refresh the page.
    If all of that left you w/the impression that I was attempting to minimize or even silence your point of view, I am sorry. That was never my aim. In fact, I thought I was doing a somewhat decent job of maintaining the integrity of the discussion while also assisting you concerning your requests.
    You are not the only one I have tried to assist away from the light of these comment sections. From the apparently well-liked to the perceived (by some) villains who comment here, I have attempted to provide an attentive ear and quality customer service, if you will.
    To Johnny Miller, David Mead and anyone else who might feel the moderating here by me might be uneven: I take no offense, at all. In fact, it has been uneven. But I do not feel this is due to any bias I have against anyone posting here. It comes down to time available to me for moderating.
    Some days, there isn’t much, at all. Some days, there is a lot. Some days, I’m checking in way too much when I should be engaged in more important priorities.
    So yes, the refereeing hasn’t been even-handed. But please don’t take it personally.
    And just in case anyone is so kind as to be inclined to offer to moderate on my behalf, thank you, in advance, but the answer is no.
    As always, thank you for your interest in this blog and for your contributions to it.

  62. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 21, 2009 at 3:47 pm #

    Faith, keeping everyone confused I believe was part of the plan. Don’t feel like the Lone Ranger. Been there, done that.

  63. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 21, 2009 at 4:02 pm #

    Mark I have no gripes about your efforts or fairness of your blog. My feathers were ruffled by a certain person, and I felt I needed to speak against it. I was not needing any help from the administrative arm of the forum, but rather an united effort and encouragement of the spirit represented here to deal with the apparent unjustices rendered by some who do post on here on occassion. Something about an united front comes to mind now. In many ways, the forum polices itself, and it does that quite well, but theres nothing like a little spice to heat up the pot of stew every now and then. This is probably the best forum out there about this case, and Strong City avoids Prudence’s forum like the plague. I should know, as I am one of it’s moderators. All I do there is knock off the cobwebs. It is practically dead. Where else would we go? Please continue as you see fit. I love Beyond90Seconds. It is a God sent.

  64. avatar
    david mead October 21, 2009 at 4:52 pm #

    Hello Mark,

    You wrote:

    If all of that left you w/the impression that I was attempting to minimize or even silence your point of view, I am sorry. That was never my aim. In fact, I thought I was doing a somewhat decent job of maintaining the integrity of the discussion while also assisting you concerning your requests.

    No Mark you need not to be corrected on any of this. On these things to which you refer here, we were in perfect agreement.

    In my last post, I was writing to Johnny about a prior incident, the one where the same person charged me falsely, and of course, off topic. Not the one to which you refer, and actually, I don’t recall as to how you were involved in it one way or the other. In fact, I think you made no comment. But thanks for the clarification. The moderation has not been taken personally by me.

    By the way, like Johnny says, this is about the only active site on this subject that I know of now so I hope you keep up the good work. I would not like to see it go down.

  65. avatar
    Jan October 21, 2009 at 4:56 pm #

    The fact that a few from Strong City or some of their believers once in awhile come and post here shows what a fair and balanced forum this is. (Credit to Mark) And the self policing most of the time works quite well, considering what a volatile topic this actually is.

    I do agree with Ron, Hope and a few others that creating a specific time limit for discussion just is a bit unusual as one never can determine what might happen at a moments notice to bring in a whole slew of new and exciting posts. And while Casidi poses an interesting alternative, that was not my forum but Mr. Redman’s and he seems content now to just post here occasionally.

    So I hope Mark might reconsider the seven day limit.

  66. avatar
    Milton October 21, 2009 at 9:12 pm #

    Johnny, so it is fair to call Michael Travesser, insane, crazy, demented, etc. but it is NOT a personal attack against him? You should carefully consider these words as a personal attack because by your own standards he was not found insane, crazy or having dementia in a court of law. You seem to think that the things I said are a personal attack against you, but what you and others say against Michael are not a personal attack? I plainly hear mockery and all sorts of accusations and suppositions that have no basis in fact. Aren’t they personal attacks?

    Johnny would you appreciate a site that was expressly dedicated to your sins and exposing them all for the world to see? Where everything you ever said or did was held under a microscope and scrutinized over and over for any seeming discrepencies? Johnny you know that I know things about you of a personal nature that you might not want exposed here, but I remain silent. I only pointed out that you once believed in the God of Michael Travesser, but now call Him ungodly. Seems that when the God of Heaven puts the shoe on your foot that you try to put on Michael that it gets a little tight and you want to rise up in resistance.

    Johnny I am not leveling any kind of personal attack against you. I am just pointing out that you personally were given what the consummation was just like we all were. Everyone had to appear before Michael individually personally with him alone and tell him what it was. Remember? He said at that time that if you did not believe in it that you should flee instantly and he would even help pay for your way out. He said he would help you hook up your trailer personally. Remember? You were given what the consummation was and stayed on. Why?

    Michael Travesser has always been open and up front about all things that he has done. He has never done things in secret like so many do. If there was something to hide, he was sure not one to do that.

    I might add here that everyone will be held accountable for what they do or do not do with the knowledge they have. Those who were with the LOR at one time know more than those who never have been there. Johnny just happens to have been there the longest and thus has rejected more than most. Yes he once sang praises to the God of Heaven for the consummation, but now he is calling it ungodly.

  67. avatar
    KM October 21, 2009 at 10:46 pm #

    Milton, I’m assuming your last paragraph about accountability applies to yourself as well as Johnny and others?

    Philippians 2:9-11 (New International Version)

    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

  68. avatar
    Anonymous One October 22, 2009 at 3:35 am #

    I have a few questions.

    If the bank accounts were to drain out, what would happen to SC and some of the women who live there that do not work? In the past some such as Danielle and Esther said they wanted nothing to do with the outside world. What would these people live on? They are young and healthy so i don’t think they would meet the criteria for state benefits.

    Why are some people who live in SC taking state benefits when they believe the state is the beast?

    If WB does not get out of prison, what will become of SC? Will everyone disband and move on in life or will a new leader be elected to continue on? Would the teachings change? Would women be allowed to take husbands? Johnny you were mentioning your pain upon seeing the changes that happened with SC. Do you feel that there is a chance it could ever return to the way it was?

    Thanks.

  69. avatar
    ron October 22, 2009 at 6:31 am #

    Milton, Wayne’s own websites were dedicated to his sins and he exposed them for all the world to see. I guess he likes it.

  70. avatar
    Jan October 22, 2009 at 8:47 am #

    I do not think many people realize exactly how wealthy this group is. The Bent Trust is quite large and even with legal fees I believe there is no reason for concern.

    So far they have managed for the last ten months to still see Wayne as their spiritual leader. How much longer that can last is anyone’s guess. But with his fast continuing he manages to be the focus and that seems to be part of their ongoing religion. No question their lives continue to revolve around their messiah, Michael.

  71. avatar
    Casidi October 22, 2009 at 9:34 am #

    Milton, I re-posted my original question with a little clarification, but you still haven’t answered. I understand that you may not want to write a novel or speak for Wayne or Jeff, so I’ll ask differently.

    Do you believe God respects, ordained and set up earthly government and man’s laws? Y/N

    If yes, do you believe that God respects the “beast” which in the Scriptures represents civil government as stated by Wayne? Y/N

    If no, are you stating that you do not agree with Wayne’s statement in the appeal bond? Y/N

    Do you believe that you have to abide by state laws even if God puts it on your heart to do otherwise? Y/N

    If yes, then do you agree with Wayne’s conviction (not his sentence) that was brought about by man’s laws and governmental process ? Y/N

    If no, are you stating that you do not agree with Wayne’s statement in the appeal bond? Y/N

    Feel free to elaborate, but for people who don’t know or “get” all the scripture representations the LOR uses, such as myself, please start any explanation with a “yes” or “no”. Sometimes I have a difficult time understanding if you are agreeing or rejecting points when you use a bunch of passages from the bible and then add your own (titles) to the stories.

  72. avatar
    ron October 22, 2009 at 9:52 am #

    It is really amazing to see how far out and complicated man has made God, when the truth is pretty simple. God is ineffable and indefinable. For some reason, many people want to tell you what God wants or what He thinks. Those are the people who should scare you. Religions, denominations, fundamentalist, and extremists are really just serving their own ego. And Cults like Strong City, where people will cut off their own mothers, fathers, and children because they want salvation are only serving their own ego. Fortunately, I really believe and hope that God is big enough to forgive us for being so gullible.

  73. avatar
    david mead October 22, 2009 at 9:53 am #

    THE FORMER GLORY

    There has been some talk here of late about the former or original glory of LOR. Well, I was part of that as everybody knows and so I think that I can speak to it.

    By comparison with the last 20 years or so, I suppose it is correct, the original glory has departed. As far as I knew, it was never rumored that anyone was behaving like Wayne began to do after the “glory” departed.

    But still, what was the original glory? It too was only the glory of man. By comparison to other churches and churchmen, we thought we looked pretty good. This was our view (judgment) of ourselves, not how God looked at us.

    In reality, we were just keeping the laws (Ten Commandments and health laws etc) a little better than other churchmen. We were a little more serious about it than they. We knew this and it made us feel really good about ourselves—it was our glory as it were. We felt that God would appreciate our “successful” efforts toward obedience and that when he made up His jewels, they would be made up from such as us. From who else? Certainly not from among the law breakers.

    Would you like to get a good look at our experience—what is now referred to as the former glory? You can. Just become a Mormon, an Adventist or a Baptist. A Catholic or a Jew. A Hindu Guru with flowers on your lap. A Buddhist on the way to Buddahood or join whatever group you want and accept what they teach. Follow their particular messiahs, popes and prophets, just do it with more vigor and sincerity than the others in it before you. Keep more rules and regulations than others. Be thinner and you will receive more respect. That alone will comprise a large part of your glory. All these groups have offshoots or independents that try to do it better than the group from which they came.

    The gods of all these groups all want you to keep their laws, better and better, more and more as best you can. Doing this, it is understood that your reward will be great. This is their glory and LOR was no different.

  74. avatar
    Casidi October 22, 2009 at 9:55 am #

    As I rereading my questions above I thought of something that could reveal the true nature of all this. I’m not sure if the LOR allows it in their religion, but it would be easy for Wayne to prove his innocence to “the world”, not the law, if he was able to take a lie detector test live on the web or videotaped. I know they aren’t admissible in court but it sure wouldn’t hurt his appeal if he came out with flying colors. Just a random thought I had.

  75. avatar
    Diane October 22, 2009 at 10:01 am #

    Hi Mark – no problems from me. I’m just dang happy that we can blog again!

  76. avatar
    Diane October 22, 2009 at 10:35 am #

    My husband works 2nd shift so I always fall asleep in bed with the TV on, HLN channel. I woke up at 3:30 this morning to hear they found little 7 year old Somer Thompson dead in a garbage dump. In a freakin garbage dump!? It seems like every week it’s someone new. The news said the Thompson’s had over 60+ registered sex offenders in they’re surrounding neighborhood. That is HUGE and that is a PROBLEM!! I’m tired of hearing about these predators hurting and harming our children. It’s wrong and it breaks my heart.
    I feel any sexual predator including Bent should have life in prison without the possibility of parole ever. We need to protect our children and these predators should never ever be allowed to see the light of day again. As far as I’m concerned, Bent can rot in that hole and die but only after a few of the other prisoners have let him know what it feels like. He’s a scam! Lock them all up and throw away the key. I’m a mother and a grandmother and if anyone ever harmed a hair on either of them I swear to God….
    Seeing that sweet little girls face on the TV this morning really upsets me. When does it stop? When do we stand up and say ENOUGH? I’m sorry for sounding so harsh and then again I’m not because that’s how I really feel at this moment. I just don’t understand.

  77. avatar
    david mead October 22, 2009 at 2:32 pm #

    Diane,

    Thank you for these thoughts. Not many have the courage to speak the truth in this manner.

    You wrote:

    “We need to protect our children and these predators should never ever be allowed to see the light of day again. As far as I’m concerned, Bent can rot in that hole and die but only after a few of the other prisoners have let him know what it feels like.”

    But Diane, this is not what Wayne has done to others. This is not how he does it to the women he has molested. He does not just molest them as other molesters do it; he makes them like it.

    For this to happen to him in prison, the head guy, the meanest inmate, the one all the others look up to (fear) would over time, carefully “cultivate” Wayne’s mind to trust him. To like what he was about to do to him. And then when he did it, have Wayne to say how nice it was and get undressed and want some more and write about it on the internet. Attach some texts to it and say how he first protested but then realized it was really God who came up with the idea.

    If it happened that way to Wayne, in prison, there would be a comparison to what Wayne does to others.

  78. avatar
    Diane October 22, 2009 at 4:58 pm #

    Thank you David. I understand what your saying but if I remember correctly, Bent said he was molested twice as a child. Victims of molestation either become molesters themselves or protectors. How do know what he did with those women and passed it off as a consummation? I’m not buying it.
    I just had to turn off my tv and turn on my computer because I can’t listen to the news anymore. My heart is breaking for the Thompson family right now and my previous post was an anger filled passionate rant. How anyone can take a sweet child and dump her in the trash……

  79. avatar
    Sam Redman October 22, 2009 at 5:51 pm #

    Distorted logic

    Diane, that sort of "get-a-rope," frontier days, mentality is in direct opposition to a more noble system of jurisprudence in which those who commit minor offenses are not punished with the same severe penalty as those who have committed more heinous crimes. Jean Val Jean in 1860 in France was sentenced to twenty years of hard labor for stealing a loaf of bread (chronicled in Les Miserables). Lee Otis Johnson in 1968 in Texas was given a 30 year sentence for possession of a single marijuana joint (he died in prison in 2002). Both of those sentences grew out of the (seemingly justifiable) outrage of law abiding people who had become incensed at other criminals flaunting the law committing very serious offenses, such as grand larceny or dealing dangerous drugs. Grave instances of both of those categories of crime do deserve incarceration reflective of severity of the offense, but lesser offenses which, although classified similarly, should not receive the same punishments. Those types of crimes are no longer handled that way. Our society has progressed.

    But, recently, because of increased public awareness of the appalling crimes committed by child raping sadistic murderers, there has been a trend, like the marijuana sentencing done in the sixties, to give the maximum penalty for all sex crime offenders in spite of vast differences in the nature of their various acts or harm to their victims.  As in the days of Jean Val Jean, if the category is particularly repugnant to the general public, then legislators and judges are fueled to make examples out of the most minor offenders . Your reaction, which you defend as being spawned from righteous indignation is typical of those who would paint every offender with the same brush.  You join a growing chorus of those who now demand that all (in your words) "have life in prison without the possibility of parole ever."

    Wayne Bent’s 18 year sentence is characteristic of such a trend, produced by the loudly voiced opinions of a misguided public which reasons that destroying the civil rights of a few individuals accused of minor sexual crimes can be justified, because examples will be made and a “greater good” will be achieved. The distorted thinking is that severely punishing even minor offenders will achieve a loftier purpose by acting as a deterrent to potential acts by the more diabolical brutal sex murderers and rapists. 

    We’ve come a long way from the days when it was considered appropriate to stone to death a woman taken in adultery.  Sentiments like you have expressed do nothing but push our society back a couple of thousand years. My appeal to you is to always think in terms of what is right, solely based on each individual’s situation and circumstance.

    — Sam

  80. avatar
    Diane October 22, 2009 at 6:41 pm #

    As I said before, I am angry, passioniate and heartbroken. It just all came out at once!

  81. avatar
    Betsy October 22, 2009 at 6:47 pm #

    Diane ~ Amen sister! My view holds a strict zero tolerance for sex crimes. In spite of what the so called expert said on the witness stand, I truly believe all of the women that he’s had sexual contact with are victims of his predatory nature. I’ve been around too long and seen the progressive nature of his sort of….hmm disorder shall I call it. Yes, I agree with Sam, let us think in terms of what is right. HIS SENTENCE!

  82. avatar
    Jan October 22, 2009 at 7:25 pm #

    Amen Sam Redman!

    I certainly too am appalled by the horrible cases we see on the news, of the true sex offenders that do despicable things to precious young girls. One only has to look at the Jaycee Dugard case or read the transcript of the Elizabeth Smart testimony and not be sickened to death.

    But please people it is totally unfair to put Wayne Bent in the same category as those individuals. I am sorry I have read the words of these young girls and what happened and I just do not see it as the same. These girls were part of a religious cult and very willingly went to Wayne Bent and wanted or thought they wanted a healing. Some wanted full consummation and they were fully satisfied. I know that A.S. was suicidal afterwords but having listened to her testimony and her safe room interview I just do not think it any way meets the same horrific happenings of Jaycee or Elizabeth Smart.

    Just as Sam mentions:

    Jean Val Jean in 1860 in France was sentenced to twenty years of hard labor for stealing a loaf of bread

    I am appalled with our country for not looking at each case independently of the others and sentence accordingly. Heaven help our country if we revert back to the days of old. Wayne’s sentence of 18 years is sadly as sign of the times. It reminds me of the 6 year old that was originally sentenced to 45 days of Reform School for proudly bringing his Cub Scout place setting to school. Each crime if there even is one needs to be closely examined and sentence accordingly. Eighteen years for Wayne Bent was totally (in my own opinion) way over the top.

    Jan

  83. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 22, 2009 at 7:54 pm #

    Milton, just a note of clarification for you. When everyone went in to talk to Wayne about the Consumation, I was NOT even living on the Land then. I was living alone in Arizona and I got NO e-mails from anybody. I was even being shunned even when a member in “Good” standing. It’s the LOR way. Out of sight, out of mind. I was working for Glendale Bugas in Tucson setting up their Propane Bulk Tank Division. I knew nothing about anything about the Consumation. I did not have the foggiest clue. You see, I had fallen through the cracks. I never did go in and speak to Wayne at all ever about the consumation. No mind trip for me then. I was spared. Marge Carpenter came up to me after I came back and spilled the beans and told me everything and I never went through any of that selective soul searching mind game. I did tell her though when she asked me what it was all about, but I only spoke to her about Omi. You see, Omi was making Goo Goo eyes at Wayne before I left, so I was able to make a correct guess about her. And I was right. I knew nothing about Jody though. Since I had successfully guessed Omi, Marge quickly told me about Jody as well. It blew me away. I do recall I raised my eyebrows, and sort of smiled, and I said to myself, “Wow’ Wayne has been busy.” I was sort of shocked, but I went with the flow anyhow. I guess I sort of was Grandfathered in. Wayne never called me in and asked me anything… He had other things on his mind then. So apparently no one thought me important enough to pace me through the proper channels. I was a victim of “No Child Left Behind.” I got an “A” anyway, even when I had only earned a “C”. So much for LOR quality control… I thought you should know the truth.

  84. avatar
    david mead October 22, 2009 at 8:02 pm #

    Jean Val Jean was an honest man, not a pervert of any kind. He was looking for work, not living off all that he had taken from his latest converts. His family and baby had no food, he was not made rich with things he had not worked for. When he took the bread, the cries of his baby’s hunger were wringing in his ears. .

    Wayne Bent is no Jean Val Jean. To see them as similar, or to mention their crimes as comparable would lead to a gross perversion of justice. Woe to a society that would be so blind.

  85. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 22, 2009 at 8:19 pm #

    And also Milton, by the way, being insane, crazy, and demented are not sins in the eyes of God, but rather reasons for His perfect Character to be willing to forgive and receive one as such unto Himself. I have never said that Wayne is lost and going to Hell. I just want him to be real, to be honest, and to get some help. Decisions made in the tomorrows by everybody are still seen by God in the NOW. He sees the finished product, we never do, and my faith is that God is the one who makes the best and most truthful judgements about everything and everyone. That’s why He is the All-knowing One. Men don’t know jack. Plus He also has read the last chapter of the book. It’s just one of those things that God can get away with. The stuff in the middle is boring to Him.

  86. avatar
    Sam Redman October 22, 2009 at 8:34 pm #

    David, you would fail a debate class with your feeble attempt to rebut with your non-sequitur presentation of a “straw man” argument. However, instead of being inept, I sense that you are simply being ingenuous. You knew full well that the comparison was not of Jean Val Jean to Wayne, or Lee Otis Johnson to Wayne, nor the adulterous woman being stoned to Wayne, but instead all those were offered merely as illustrations of punishments being disproportionate to their respective crimes. For my discussion (or debate) with the points Diane made, Wayne’s circumstance and crime stands only in comparison to what punishment will be rightly deserved by the rapist and murderer of little Somer Thompson (whose tragic death is what prompted Diane’s outrage).

    As Johnny said once about me (while voicing some disagreement on something I said), “I still like you,”. But, really, David, sometimes you wander a bit off of the logic path.

    — Sam

  87. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 22, 2009 at 8:39 pm #

    But Sam, there are soooo many varieties of “Logic”. Which one should I choose? I am sooo confused… Just messing with ya… LOL…

  88. avatar
    david mead October 22, 2009 at 9:27 pm #

    Was it a debate Sam, that you thought I was entering into? Did you think me the captain of a high school debate squad? Sorry to disappoint you. Actually, it seems to me that it might be the case that we just disagree on this one point. Not so amazing is it?

    Wouldn’t you agree that when a judge or jury look at a particular case, they look at more than just the moment of the crime? Even character witnesses (other people’s opinions) are presented for their evaluation This is why I compared the two men (which you introduced for us) and also their crimes. You did intend to compare them didn’t you, not just the sentences, but also the crimes for which the sentences came? At least I thought that is what you intended.

    I accept that you see both crimes as similar (Jean Val Jean’s who stole a loaf of bread for his starving family and Wayne’s) unless I am mistaken. I do not. I see no similarity at all. And I see no need to debate it. We just disagree. I honor your view and comparison but do not share it. Some of your arguments for it are persuasive, for instance when looking at it in a purely technical or forensic manner. I just prefer to look at the larger picture and at all the greater damage done to those involved, something that I think should not be ignored. And as I said, a society that ignores it, does so at it’s own peril. This is not to say that there is no danger of disproportionate sentencing. There is., and I would stand with you on that wherever it might happen, but in this man’s opinion, this is not one of them.

    I’m glad you still like me. The feeling is mutual.

  89. avatar
    whisperwind October 22, 2009 at 10:46 pm #

    While the sexualization of children is not new or rare, it is unacceptable for me to surrender to its malignancy. I think the solution to the case taking place in Florida right now is evident. Wayne’s case is just as evident. A sexual offender who will not or can not comprehend the repugnancy of their behavior is best separated from those who may be vulnerable. Ban him to strong city some say, which would be fine if there was any way you could be assured that a voice, or his witnesses and virgins wouldn’t come along and tell him to do something very esoterical. I think these folks have lost just about any credibility they may have had to be able to rationally govern themselves.

  90. avatar
    Milton October 22, 2009 at 11:06 pm #

    Casidi, I will ask you a couple of questions that will answer the ones you asked.

    Moses was given the law of God on two tables of stone. They were written by the finger of God. One of the ten says, “Thou shalt not kill.” Right after receiving those ten commandments he came down off the mountain and is was not long until many of his own countrymen were dead. They were slain by the sword at his command.

    Question: Did Moses respect the law of God that he received?

    Question: Did Moses break that law in commanding the death of all who disobeyed?

    Question: Is it possible that he was really keeping the law, in when he began jdccalling for the death of his own brethren?

    Question: What would the newspapers and court system of the Canaanities say? Would they say he was unrespeakul of he very law writtn by the finger of God? Would they possibly call him crazy and say he needed psychiatric care?

    The answers to these questions will answer the ones you asked me.

    Milton

  91. avatar
    Casidi October 22, 2009 at 11:44 pm #

    Milton, Like I said, I don’t “get” your interpretation of the bible and I asked nicely that you not use bible references without answering “Yes” or “No”. Maybe I’m a freaking stupid idiot, but really I don’t understand your INTERPRETATION of the bible passages you reference. Is it really that hard to be honest and straight forward? Do you always need to twist bible passages? How freaking hard is it to type Y-E-S or N-O or are you such a freaking automaton that you can’t speak for yourself? Man, you can’t even follow simple direction.

    You know what, never mind, I see you are so completely mind controlled. I’m done with you… nothing you have to say from here on is of any importance in anything because you are a robot just spewing what you want to hear. I actually wanted to hear what *YOU* had to say and you couldn’t even have a single original thought. I pity you.

  92. avatar
    Anonymous One October 23, 2009 at 12:11 am #

    I have pretty much felt like WB’s sentence was draconian and didn’t fit the crime. But I think I’m starting to slowly change my mind about that. Because he’s never going to believe he did anything to these girls. He’s never going to feel remorseful either. He doesn’t care that he stole their innocence away from them, or alienated and manipulated his own sons’ wife into bed.

    All WB can do is sit in prison and worry about his food. FOOD. Which is the LEAST of his troubles. He has created alot of damage and I think he should sit there in prison until he comes to the realization that he what he has done is wrong, and that he should pay for those crimes.

    Sure, these girls can move on in their lives, and they can go on to be happy, but there will always be that time in their life that is never erased.

    And Diane, I think my jaw dropped when it came on CNN this morning about that precious little girl. I think it too has stirred up some anger me about our children being hurt.

  93. avatar
    Diane October 23, 2009 at 7:06 am #

    Judge Baca obviously had a good reason for his sentencing of Bent and regardless if we agree with it/him or not, is it really for us to say? And who are we to say what Bent did to these girls was “a minor offense”. These minor offenses will have long lasting effects on the victims. We can sit here and debate it all day long but it isn’t going to change anything and only make people mad at each other.
    Anonymous One says: “But I think I’m starting to slowly change my mind about that. Because he’s never going to believe he did anything to these girls. He’s never going to feel remorseful either. He doesn’t care that he stole their innocence away from them, or alienated and manipulated his own sons’ wife into bed. All WB can do is sit in prison and worry about his food. FOOD. Which is the LEAST of his troubles. He has created alot of damage and I think he should sit there in prison until he comes to the realization that he what he has done is wrong, and that he should pay for those crimes.” That is so true and his behavior in court also played a part in his sentencing. Those girls were being groomed by Bent and his lady friends for these consummations, is that not predator behavior?
    Sam, do you know what the recidivism rate is in the United States for minor sex crimes? What is the likelihood of the re-offender committing a more serious crime the second or third time around? I believe that sex criminals are destined to strike again. They have a craving disorder and it’s not like an infection that can be cured.
    I was so angry yesterday and I posted how I felt, and for that I’m called misguided, a distorted thinker. Every day when I turn on the news or open the paper, a child is missing, a young girl has been raped & killed, celebrity sex scandals, David Letterman, Steve Philips (ESPN), John Edwards affair, Madoff’s cocaine fueled sex parties, etc etc etc. With the exception of the 28 year old Sunday school teacher, Melissa Huckaby, granddaughter of a Baptist Church Pastor, all of these crimes/scandals are committed by men. Obviously men are wired differently than women. I don’t know, I’m not an expert on anything but it sure sickens the hell out of me.
    It’s a scary world out there, not safe for women or children to be outside anymore alone. Parents get mad because they’re children are parked in front of the television set, computer, Nintendo, texting, etc. but at least they are safe at home.

  94. avatar
    whisperwind October 23, 2009 at 7:45 am #

    Diane, it is a very sad day when people come to the conclusion that men are wired for sexual predation and that a terrible mistake can never have an atonement.

  95. avatar
    Diane October 23, 2009 at 8:13 am #

    Can people really atone for crimes like that? Wired is just a term that I used. What would you call it then Whisperwind? Is this just normal perverted behavior?

  96. avatar
    Johnny D. Miller October 23, 2009 at 9:39 am #

    I would attempt to offer some food for thought for my former brethren of the LOR. This for the sake of arguement only. But consider it closely. Wayne has said and Strong City has agreed that Wayne Bent had a special annointing from heaven to be messiah. Wayne has said that he had more right than even a doctor who practices medicine to administer his form of healing to unclothed underage female devoltees and followers. Lets said for arguement sake only that these things are true, accepted and known by all men. Wayne Bent was innocent of everything, everybody knew it and business goes on as normal. Along comes another ordained minister of the gospel with over 20 years experience as a respected pastor, lets choose his background, lets say a Morman, or a Southern Babtist. He leaves his former church, forms a cult with about 50 or so members, purchases land in Union county in New Mexico. He does a study on the Song of Solomon, takes 2 Witnesses who leave their husbands and familys, and chooses 7 Virgins and pours out the plagues onto the earth. He sleeps with his daughter-in-law as well. He calls himself Michael Cow Pastureville. They totally copycat Wayne Bent and Strong City in every detail. He also lays with 2 underage female virgins and does Nude Healing sessions with them as well. One of them has 5 or more of these sessions with Michael alone on his bed. This Michael also deflowers most of the Virgins in his camp, and all of this “new land” is “married” to him as well. The state of New Mexico and the media hear about it. Movies and documentaries are made. The internet is a buzzing as well. this Michael and Strong City is a Mirror of the other one, identical in every way. Michael Cow Pastureville is arrested and charged with the same crimes as was our Michael Travesser, except for two hitches. There is a difference between the two groups. Number One, The second Michael is not Michael Travesser. He is a copycat, an imposter, even though he really believes in his heart that his calling is sincere and from God. And number two. Michael Travesser had never gone to trial, because he had never been turned in, because nobody from the outside of Strong City knew about the underage girls. He had instructed the church to tell no one about it because of the bad possibilities that could come out of it. He exercised a bit of wisdom. It was all a secret kept by Strong City from the world. The jury is now selected for this second Michael’s trial, and low and behold, every jury member for that trial is a resident of Strong City, from Jeff Bent on down the line including Eileen, Wendy, Bill, Jody, Debbie, Faithlily, Kathy, Jerry, Timothy, Travis, Aquinna,and Dale and Kay as alterates. This trial goes the same way as Wayne Bents trial to the letter. National Geographic films it as well. You sit there and see the evidence. Sarah Montoya is this Michael’s court apponted attorney. How would you have ruled? You heard the safe room interviews. Would you have found the second Michael guilty, or not guilty. Would you have accepted this “new” self-sent messial, who was a copycat? You did not know his character in the same way that you did know Wayne Bent’s character. This second Michael touched nude little girls like a doctor to heal them while he was nude himself. Would you have locked him up? There can only be one Michael Travesser, only one messiah. Do you remember when another former minister of the LOR wanted to copycat Wayne and have two witnesses, and he was quickly shut down? Put yourself in that world of outsiders seeing and hearing about these things for the first time as did this unsuspecting world who ended up hearding about Michael Travesser. Was the state of New Mexico wrong to protect her citizens? Was the media only doing it’s job? Were the parents of the children involved correct in turning in their former pastor? You judge! Where does it all end? Did the world need another messiah besides Jesus Christ? What was wrong with Jesus? Wasn’t his death on the cross enough in your eyes? Did Jesus have to touch nude little girls? Consider my senario carefully. I did, and I know how I would have ruled as well. The world represented in Union county New Mexico saw this Wayne Bent as a real threat, rightfully so, as would you also perhaps would have seen Michael Cow Pastureville as a real threat to your closed sociey. There can only be one messiah. I would like to hear some comments on what I have offered as food for thought from everyone.

  97. avatar
    david mead October 23, 2009 at 9:59 am #

    Johnny, interesting question.

    If Wayne Bent were the fourth or fifth messiah to do what he has done with women and under aged children, we know how his Strong City followers would vote. To them, nothing would matter, as long as it was their god (Wayne) who did it. Milton is exhibit A for how they think and for what they believe.

    He claims to be the second, but Sam has exposed that error. Any search on the internet will reveal how often Wayne’s folly happens in cults. Father Yod and a host of others were doing it all with Scriptures before Wayne found came along.

Thank you for visiting.